we talked too long. time for one quick tweet. it is such a pleasure to get my morning news fix with a gentle

sampling of ice cube. we're going to give you ice cube each and every day. you can do it, put your back into it. "morning joe" starts right now. mitt, you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home and you knew about it for a year. and the idea that you stand here before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the height of hypocrisy. >> governor romney -- >> rick, i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life. and so i'm afraid -- i'm looking forward to finding your facts on that. >> i'll see what the facts are. you had -- >> rick, i'm speaking. i'm speaking. i'm speaking. >> it's time for you to tell the truth. >> this is the way the rules work here. i get 60 seconds and then you get 30 seconds to respond,

right. anderson? would you please -- would you please -- are you going to keep talking? are you going to let me finish what i'm saying. look, rick. >> follow the rules. >> this is a tough couple of debates for rick. and i understand that, so you're going to get testy. >> we hired a lawn company to mow hour lawn and they had illegal immigrants working there. and when that was pointed out to us, we let them go. you have a problem with allowing someone to finish speaking. and i suggest that if you want to become president of the united states, you've got to let both people speak. >> good morning, everyone. >> anderson -- anderson? >> it's wednesday, october 19th. that was fascinating. >> that was fascinating. >> with us onset -- >> the republican debates fascinating. >> no, i liked it. i called my dad and we were talking and watching. it was like a soccer match.

political writer for the "huffington post," sam stein. my dad loves soccer. and john meacham, and in washington, msnbc political analyst and former chairman of the republican national -- >> look at that -- from wimbledon. >> what just happened? >> chauncy. >> wow. >> that is nice. >> is there a straw voter, mike? >> i love that. >> i'm thrown off. >> that was -- >> from me to you. >> that was really something last night. that debate. >> yeah, it was great, actually. i thought mitt romney was fabulous. >> mitt romney finally found an audience that cheered for him. >> i heard people -- i heard analysts saying he lost it or whatever. no, actually i liked seeing -- i liked seeing it. this is what he will do if -- i want to see a president if we're going to have one really speak up for himself. and these characters, these

clowns were all honing in on him, and he pushed back. it was good. no? >> well, i don't know. there's another side of that. >> what's the other side? >> well, it came to us in the form of a quip offstage while we were -- you know, we go down the line and shake hands with orphans and anyone else who wants to come on and say hi. and john meacham while we were doing the rope line on "morning joe," he said, you know, i would just warning warn governor romney you should never get into a fight with a guy who shoots coyotes in the face. and i think that may be a good point. the question is, who -- if you're the front-runner, do you really want to get down in the mud? >> well, i think so. right now the only person who hasn't -- the republicans haven't put ahead in the polls is wayne newton who was there. >> he's next. >> he had good seats. >> he went in a perry man and left a romney man.

>> i heard that. that was good. >> he can sing for mitt. but anyway, go ahead. >> i agree with mika. it was great. i thought it was -- i guess these debates always do this. i thought it was a disproportionate level of rule keeping. you know. are you going to talk? are you going to talk? in a way i don't see him doing that with ahmadinejad. >> just let -- >> i'm all for it. but i don't think that is a qualification. >> yeah. i mean, come on. >> i don't think that shows a spirit that's going to, you know -- >> well, then after he finally would get them to shut up, he would actually have something to say, which i think helps. it shows some -- >> well, i'm going to say, willie geist, better that rick perry -- and i can't believe i'm defending rick perry this morning. but better -- this hurts. >> you're going to spontaneously come bust. >> better that rick perry show up and not fall asleep even if

he's rude. >> and wrong. >> and wrong. >> and has his facts wrong. >> as bill clinton said, better strong and wrong. i mean, rick perry, i think if you're rick perry and you're leaving the debate, i think you've got to be happy. >> i guess so. sam and i were talking about this on "way too early," though. but if the standard is he had great energy last night, that's not a good sign for the campaign. his central issue he took up last night which led to all of these fights with mitt romney about illegal immigration is one that didn't necessarily take hold four years ago, which is that mitt romney employed a landscaping company that hired illegal immigrants. he tried to make that stick. rick perry said you support illegal immigration. i'm not sure the voting public is onboard with that. >> i disagree with that one slightly. we talked about this earlier, but it's not -- mitt romney should not be responsible for necessarily for who his employers are employing.

but it gets to the traditional charge against mitt romney, which is that he will say something publicly and do something else or believe something else privately. and i think that might be what rick perry's going for. >> well, he might have wanted to say that -- >> he didn't get to it. >> yeah, but that's rick perry's problem, he can't actually finish the sentence. >> can't articulate. >> he's not the height of hypocrisy but the heighth. >> come on, northeastern elite boy. what are you doing here? what are you a meacham in training? let's go to michael steele. keeping it real with michael steele. dressed like chauncey. >> withering heighth. >> yes. i actually think it's one of those circumstances it's a win/win for both, romney showed he can be tough. i think perry's just politically dead on the illegal immigration issue. it doesn't matter what he does

now. but that said, as you know because you've run for office, i've run for office. when you're trailing somebody like perry's trailing romney now, all you want to do in a debate is draw them into a battle. sit you and them next to each other. and by that standard, rick perry won. >> well, i'm with you, joe. but at the same time, yeah. >> i'm doing my best playing devil's advocate here. >> you want to be a little scrappy and perry was a lot scrappy. being in vegas, it reminded me of my former brother-in-law's fight. you think, wow. but in the case of perry, when you open that, you don't want the other guy to use it on you. and he got owned several times last night when he engaged that way. and the reality of it is, if you're going to start that kind of fight, you've got to finish it. i don't think he finished it. yeah, if the standard is he showed energy, he was awake, you know, his lips were moving --

>> oh, my god. >> words were coming out of his mouth -- >> as far as michael steele -- let's leave that point. i tried to defend perry, it just didn't take. >> that's okay. >> michael dresses like a bad mitten player, he talks like a wrestler. so let's talk about cain. what do we have in the news about herman cain. >> all eyes, of course, were on herman cain at the start of the night. his gop rivals took turns slamming the 9-9-9 plan to reform the tax code. take a listen. >> reports are now out that 84% of americans would pay more taxes under his plan. >> let me tell you something, you don't have to have a big analysis to figure this thing out. go to new hampshire where they don't have a sales tax, you're fixing to give them one. they're not interested in 9-9-9. >> we are replacing the current tax code with oranges.

it's not correct to mix apples and oranges. >> herman, are you saying the state sales tax will also go away? >> no, that's an apple. we are replacing a bunch of oranges. >> and i'm going to be getting a bushel basket with apples and oranges in it because i pay both taxes. >> you have said in recent days that 9-9-9 would be a harder sell then he lets on. how so? >> well, you just watched it. >> that was one of the best lines of the night from gingrich. why is it so hard to defend? you just saw it because poor herman is talking about apples and oranges. there were misplaced metaphors falling from the sky left and right. jon meacham. >> that's the way the cookie bounces. >> exactly. made my teeth hurt. >> how could you not say mitt romney was not perfect. even that he was like okay. this is complete stupidity, let me help this poor man along. >> but mitt romney deboned him.

>> there's no doubt. >> this is is the case where the campaign bosses did well. we went through the analyses, saw how aggressive it was. and within a couple of days everyone on the stage was basically dismantling him. and romney put an end to the notion that 9-9-9 was acceptable tax policy. >> romney finished him there, and i wrote about it in politico yesterday. >> whining -- >> far right freaks -- you're not a real conservative, herman cain, bla, bla, bla. the same thing when i said about palin when i said she wasn't going to win it and bauchmann wasn't going to win it. and cain. i talked about how he took great pride in his ignorance in foreign policy saying i don't know who the leader of ubecky stan-stan is.

and we saw how dangerous that is. rick perry's assistance on illegal immigration, what he said last night before the debate because he is so -- so unschooled in foreign policy. the slip-up he made last night will finish him in the republican party. listen to this what he said. this was in reference to the recent prisoner swap between israel and hamas. listen to what he said when he was asked if he would make a similar swap for one american soldier and all the terrorists at gitmo. roll tape. >> i could see myself authorizing that kind of transfer, but what i would do is i would make sure i got all of the information -- i got all the input, considered all the options and then the president has to be the president and make a judgment call. i could make that call if i had to. >> yeah, you could make that call. and we could also turn the pentagon over to giraffes and

zebras, but you wouldn't want to make that call, would you? nor would anybody, herman cain, that had any idea about how to run foreign policy. that, jon meacham, is a shocking, shocking peek into just how ignorant this man is when it comes to foreign policy. he would release all the prisoners in gitmo for one american soldier. >> right. to his credit, he admitted he misspoke once he understood -- >> we'll play this in a little bit. >> and then he -- in the debate itself and then afterward, i think, with cooper. i think it's been an odd serial infatuation with these sort of non-rh non-romneys. and it started last spring with trump, your buddy, i know, i'm sorry. >> no apologies. >> and you know, we go through this every cycle. to some extent. this has lasted longer.

>> it hasn't lasted longer -- >> i suggested it started with sarah palin who was a reality tv star. and it has continued through michele bauchmann who is not ready to be president. and perry who can't articulate a basic vision for america. and it's moved on to cain now. i think this is pretty unprecedented. >> it's a significant passion gap about romney that i think will be overcome because republicans -- >> didn't that help last night? >> you know, perhaps. >> was it just me? >> perhaps. he certainly was more of a character. he has been a caricature. and so he actually made an impression. >> he stood up for himself and was like, really, i'm not going to put up with this. >> you may be right. let's finish the story on cain. last night, minnesota congresswoman michele bauchmann who had some really good moments last night. >> fiery moments. >> as did newt gingrich. this is what michele bauchmann

said about herman cain's indefensible statement before the show. >> for any kand date to say that they would release the prisoners at guantanamo in exchange for a hostage would be absolutely contrary to the historical nature of the united states and what we do in our policy. that's naive. we cannot do that. the united states has done well because we have an absolute policy. we don't negotiate. >> i said that i believe in the philosophy of we don't negotiate with terrorists. i didn't say -- i would never agree to letting hostages in guantanamo bay go. no, that wasn't the intent at all. >> so afterward, anderson cooper asked him about whether he meant it or not. and he said, oh, i misspoke, i misspoke. but the problem is, he was asked a question beforehand. >> yeah. >> and it just shows, michael

steele, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. he's making it up as he goes along. he's caught in the middle of what was a book tour. and i'm not even trying to be funny. he's ill-equipped to answer the most basic questions. >> and the most interesting thing, the next debate is on, guess what? foreign policy. >> he's in trouble. >> they have got to get him up to speed but quick on that. i think it's not just the foreign policy, but it's also the 9-9-9. you know, there's a fundamental question on the 9-9-9 that gives you some clue as to the thinking on foreign policy. and that is, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's not a chicken. >> it's an orange. >> it's an orange. and you can't sit out there and put this stuff out there in the ether and just because you've got this mojo with the voters. they like the way you sound, you're a spunky fighter that that's going to take care of your foreign policy problems as

well as your tax problems. and i think herman cain has got a lot of boning up to do if he's going to ride this momentum to the white house. >> let me ask you something as someone who follows republican politics closely, why hasn't mitt romney made that jump? if all of these cartoon characters were so ridiculous and they fluctuate up 20 points and down 20 points, why hasn't he risen above this pack of characters? >> well, i think because there's a narrative out there about mitt romney that has set in. that he has, i think, to some degree successfully begun to chisel away at. and that is his likability, his, you know, he's got this sort of stiff upper lip kind of approach. he can get a little bit prickly as we saw last night. and i think all of that grates on the nerves of people. back in the 2008 campaign,

everyone who was running against him didn't like him and didn't want to be on the stage with him. all of that has been baked into the attitude that people have about him. and it's a problem. but i think he will overcome it. >> i didn't see him getting prickly, i saw him laughing at them. >> i think middle america may suspect of mitt romney that when the camera's turned off and nobody's looking, he dresses like michael steele. >> i think -- >> there may lie a problem. >> before we go to break, michele bauchmann had quite a moment while she was talking about the housing crisis. and she appealed to mothers in america. take a listen to this. >> when you talk about housing, when you talk about foreclosures, you're talking about women who are at the end of their rope because they're losing their nest for their children and their family. i'm a mom. i talk to these moms. i just want to say one thing to moms all across america tonight.

this is a real issue. it's got to be solved. president obama has failed you on this issue of housing and foreclosures. i will not fail you on this issue. i will turn this country around. we will turn the economy around. we will create jobs. that's how you hold on to your house. hold on, moms out there. it's not too late. >> see i think she's absolutely right. american homeowners have been failed. a lot of them failed themselves. but many of them were, excuse me, but completely screwed. she brought up a great point. it's kind of -- first i thought, is this getting weird? no. >> it was a terrific point. as i heard it, though, it came to -- the conclusion was, i'll turn the economy around. there was not a specific sort of -- >> housing's the key to it. >> it is. but if you're going to be that powerful and that dead right about it. but then to argue perhaps the

free market will take care of that. >> her gender politics -- this is the first time she's actually used that card and i thought she did it well. >> here's a powerful moment. powerful moment. coming up, president of the conservative americans for tax reform grover norquist will join us, and later, tom coburn of oklahoma. how does godfather's pizza stack up in a blind taste test? >> the guys of politico don't have anything to write about? did they run out in the middle of last night? >> we're not doing that, are we? >> we're going to make something else up. but speaking of making things up. >> don't believe a word he says, okay. >> he actually said it was going to be sunny, warm, 89 on the east coast. >> he's so cute. be nice. >> i just throw darts, guys. just throw darts and hope i get lucky.

like baseball players, they only get to hit 3 out of 10 times and get their job. >> at least he's honest. >> every commercial break. one shot. here's what we're dealing with. a well advertised travel trouble day. o'hare airport, any of the new york city airports, baltimore, boston later on today down to d.c. you have a potential for some significant delays. already rain has moved in this morning. we're expecting maybe about 1 to 2 inches of rainfall. some cities could get a little less than that, but that's the general rule. also tornadoes last night in florida, still got rain from west palm beach to miami. forecast in new england, rainy and windy. the worst of the winds, though, back in chicago today, high wind warning in effect. winds could be 60 miles per hour. and on lake michigan, we could have the waves off the shore up to 20 feet high. amazing pictures from there later on today. and i'll bring you those later tomorrow morning. we're brewed by starbucks. i'm not a number.

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24 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. the "washington post" reports that the president's use of a teleprompter has become a line of attack with the gop. they say he's stranded without it. someone stole a truck in virginia containing the president's teleprompter. he had another one up and running -- >> this is a story in "the washington post?" >> seriously. that's going to end up biting them. >> ronald reagan used teleprompters, everyone used teleprompters. but we don't use teleprompters. the atlanta journal constitution, secretary of state hillary clinton pledged continue support for the war-torn country. secretary clinton also acknowledged in unusually blunt terms that the u.s. would not mind seeing foreign dictator moammar gadhafi captured or

killed. to the business section the "wall street journal" headline reads apple loses some of its shine. a rare bump in the road as it transitioned to life without steve jobs. iphones missed estimates. and the "financial times" says moody's has cut spain's credit rating. moody's warned that france's aaa rating now is at risk. and here's one from our parade of papers minneapolis "startribune." limit television time for children under 2. they say studies show that television can delay an infant's development, including their ability to talk. instead the doctors recommend that parents should talk to their young children and leave the tv off, even if it's on in the background. >> that's radical. but i'll tell you what, this is a study that, you know --

>> secondhand tv. >> secondhand tv's horrible. and if you look at patrick gavin, you see -- >> that's what happens. >> you see what the ill-effects of running laverne and shirley in a loop. >> and pinky tuskadero. >> i still watch sesame street to this day. >> it's good to see you. >> couple quick things. herman cain's got a super pack. touch on that briefly, but more importantly, who won that big taste test you previewed for us moments ago? >> well, quickly on the super pack, he announced minutes before the debate. the most interesting thing not so much that they launched it, but what kind of results we're going to see from it. one of the lowest percentages of big donors, people who max out at $2,500. and you'll see if any of these sort of big-money republicans do give these, you know, huge sums of money to his super pack. if not, i think that's a clear

sign that the republican power structure's not backing him. >> what about the taste test? >> well, it was as joe would appreciate it. going to a lot of pizza joints, which is the secret. a fun story since he touts godfather's pizza so much. i drove four hours into the heart of virginia to get a godfather's pizza, brought it back to d.c., had a blind taste test. pizza hut, papa johns, godfathers, was unanimously the least favorite pizza. >> really? that hurts. >> that settles it, the election is over. >> it is over. that's why you won't find like godfather's pizza in sweden. the swedes don't touch it. >> great segue. >> what do you mean? >> as you know, seven ambassadors -- >> the swedes don't like godfather's pizza. >> one name sticks out to us here at "morning joe." let's have it. >> we buried the lead.

mika's brother mark brzezinski was approved by the senate. >> ambassador to sweden, mika, your brother. >> do we get cuff links and stuff? >> i don't know. >> do we get to crash in his place next time we're over there? >> i think they don't know this yet, but we're coming. >> you've got to be proud of your brother. >> i'm so proud. >> he worked in the clinton administrati administration, right? >> he worked on the obama campaign and i think this is something that -- >> what did he do in the clinton administration? >> he was on the national security council staff and he, my gosh, he spent time in poland writing a book there on the constitution. he's amazing. he's the smart -- he's amazing. >> he's the smart one of the family. >> both my brothers ian and mark are like just incredible academically and intellectually. >> your parents have to be really proud. >> i'm the runt.

they are very happy. i called them last night, we were talking about it. we'll do a show in stockholm this summer for a month. is that okay? >> for a month. >> sounds wonderful. >> good, it's done. >> i guess if we want our godfather's pizza, we're going to have to get it shipped in, willie. >> bring it. fly with it. you can carry on a godfather's pizza. >> can you really? >> have you done that? >> i'm going to call mark's wife and tell him we're on his way. >> congratulations, mark brzezinski, the new ambassador to sweden, and patrick gavin, thank you so much. >> see ya. ken auletta, chuck todd, and tina brown when we come back. did you hear this story? >> i'm dead serious, everybody knows they were drinking. >> in the dugout? >> no, not in the dugout. >> that's the new story. >> just be quiet.

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all right. time for some sports. joe, sam, pay attention to this one. the blame game of the red sox stunning, staggering collapse at the end of the regular season

seems to take a new turn every day. we've got a good one today. whdh television reporting that fenway park employees allege josh beckett, jon lester, and john lackey occasionally drank beer in the dugouts during games when they did not pitch. according to the employees, the three pitchers would head back to the clubhouse around the sixth inning and return to the dugout with cups filled with bud light. one identified employee described it this way, he would say, it's about that time. beckett was the instigator but they were right behind him. it was blatant and hard not to notice what was going on. late last night the red sox released statements from all three players denying the report. josh beckett saying i cannot let this allegation go without response. enough is enough. i admit i made mistakes along the way this season, but this has gone too far. to say we drank in the dugout during the games is not true.

jon lester said the accusation is completely false. anonymous sources are continuing to provide exaggerated and in this case inaccurate information. >> so by the way, willie, this is perfect for them. if they did not drink in the dugout, they are now able to come out and act shocked and stunned and deeply saddened that no, they didn't drink there, they drank ten feet away. let me talk to a fellow boston red sox fan. does it really matter if they're drinking beer in the dugout or drinking beer eating fried chicken and playing video games while the red sox are going down? >> i would rather have them drink in the dugout -- >> actually give a damn. >> the thing is, they really don't give a damn. >> stop. >> no, seriously. they get paid so much money. you talk to red sox fans, and you look into those stands, they pack those stands every night. there's so many blue-collar people that i know people in new england and you do too, i know,

that wait all year to be able to afford one game to send their four family members to a red sox game. all year! and these clowns that make tens of millions of dollars are getting drunk in the locker room and can't even sit in the dugout and act like they give a damn. it's an insult. you know that! >> fenway's the most -- >> it's unbelievable. >> one of the most expensive parks to go to. people do wait an eternity just to go in the game. and it's sad that they go there and they see a drunk jon lester -- >> guys up with the red sox organization and they've been very kind to mika and me at times and would give us tickets to give to friends. and you give it to people and they start tearing up and saying i couldn't afford these. we wait all year to see a game. and these damn baseball players don't understand how they've sold out their fans. and i will say this about any

team, but it's especially pathetic for the red sox. these fat clowns need to get on the treadmill and need to apologize to red sox nation. >> kurt schilling said in that interview you were talking about this week that the red sox players deserve every boo they get when they're introduced on opening day. expecting an ugly scene at fenway on opening day. >> seems like he's enjoying this too much. >> he's your guy. the bloody sock and that whole thing you made up during the alcs. >> will, you would agree, though. you'd say the same thing about the yankees. they charge so much for seats. if the players were drinking -- what if a-rod were drinking in the dugout? i don't think the yankees would put up with that. i'm glad tito's fired. it's pathetic he let that go on. >> a-rod's posing shirtless in the mirror. lester did admit this week that they had what he called rally beers in the clubhouse. but again, all the pitchers deny they sat in the dugout and drank. >> when are they going to apologize? when are they going to apologize

to the fans, sam stein? >> opening day is going to be very awkward for a lot of people. a lot of people. and i'm curious to see what they do with lackey because he's been a huge disappointment. >> and what that guy's done in his personal life, i'm not going to bring it up here, but they need to boot him out. >> who's going to take him at that price? there are some teams still playing, we should point out. game one of the world series is tonight in st. louis. the cardinals, great story, 10 1/2 back in the wild card on august 24th, now playing and hosting the world series against the favored texas rangers. >> look at those two teams, willie, underdogs, nobody talked about them all year, but of course, us. we called those central time zone teams little engines that could. >> we created a scenario where the yankees and red sox would play in the world series. those are the only two teams in the world. but it'll be a great world series. >> and both of them stone cold

sober. it's going to be a great series. >> that's the key. >> go rangers! >> mika's must-read opinion pages. more when we continue on "morning joe." [ inner voice ] establish connection. give me voice control. applications up. check my email and text messages. hands in position. airbags. ten of 'em. perfect. add blind spot monitor. 43 mpg, nice.

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right now, our children are paying the price for this recession more than any other group of americans. and that's simply unacceptable. because we can do something about it. and that's what we do. that's what the president and i are going all across the country. people say we're campaigning. we sure in heck are campaigning. we're campaigning to change this environment. change this environment. >> all right. >> is that how you can judge who is successful? >> hey, we're on the air. >> i know, we are.

>> sun's about to come up over washington. welcome back to "morning joe." time now for the must-read opinion pages. are you ready? >> i can't wait. >> i picked another one, but joe wants this one. >> because we've got the pope here. >> we do. >> mr. theologian. >> "washington post," a candidate's faith matters. this is by robert jeffress. >> remember him? he's the guy that said mitt romney is a mormon, rick perry is a christian. >> it's a cult. and we're going to give him -- >> that's the guy. >> i don't agree with. >> christian -- >> it's a cult. >> go ahead. >> i mean, really. >> but we know what a cult is. >> i believe i've been misquoted. really? we saw you on camera. >> we just played your words, cowboy. >> i believe i've been misquoted repeatedly as telling the gop not to vote for romney. i have never made such a statement. i realize i might very well end up voting for romney if he is

the republican nominee. >> a cult member? so he supports cultists. >> while i prefer a competent christian over a competent nonchristian, religion is not the only consideration in choosing a candidate. frankly christians have not always made good presidents. we must also consider whether a candidate is competent to lead and govern according to biblical principles. wow. during this fire storm, some have quoted martin luther as saying he'd rather be governed by a competent unbeliever than kpe -- at this point, we have the opportunity to select both a competent leader and a committed christian. >> there he goes judging mitt romney's faith again. i think we'll leave that up to god. father, son, holy ghost. >> whatever it is.

>> we'll let that crowd make those judgments. >> yeah. this is an example of we have to save religion from the religious. because that's the kind of conversation that gives all religious dialogue in the public square trouble. it is one factor among many. it's like economics, it's like partisanship, like geography. that's the way madison set it up. that's the way we've done it. it can be one factor. when it becomes the deciding factor, you are on a road to theocracy. and the great wondrous achievement of the united states of america is without having it stranglo stranglous. and that is where they changed the idea of religious tolerance to religious liberty. and this talk rolls it back and folks should speak up about it. >> what is problematic is -- and i think you're right. you said before he's answering the wrong question.

i think what's problematic is that this one preacher of a very large church in dallas is telling america who the proper christian is to vote for. and who is not. he's passing judgment. and he's basically doing god's work. and he should really just -- >> and he says he's not imposing a religious test. but in fact, he is, a s you sai. >> he is. vote for the guy i say is a christian and not for the guy who is not a christian. >> jon huntsman, the reasonable republican. it was clearer than ever that republicans have gotten exactly what they had coming. their nominating process controlled by the religious warriors and anti-government agitators who dominate straw polls has reached the logical field. the hottest candidate in the field is herman cain. a fast-food tycoon who never

heard of neo conservatism and a three-digit number for domestic policy. by contrast, jon huntsman, governor, ambassador, the man who in a normal political environment would be the most qualified and formidable candidate in the race wasn't even on stage. a system that rejects jon huntsman in favor of herman cain isn't a process. >> well, he wasn't on stage because he chose not to be -- >> he chose not to be. but michael steele, jon huntsman is the most qualified to be president of the united states. and for whatever reason, he's not up there. and that's fine. that's up to the republican voters to decide. unfortunately, when you match him next to the number of unqualified candidates that have been in the lead over the past year, it raises significant questions about this primary process. >> well, it does. and it goes back to the point we

were making on who is the better christian to serve as president. if that's part of the primary speak and thinking of the voters, yeah, you're going to have someone like jon huntsman standing on the sidelines, going, what? i'm not qualified to play in this game? the only problem i have about huntsman not being there was taking himself out of that debate. i always think it's good to show up and plant your flag. and last night, i think, actually when you look back on it would have been a great opportunity for him to do that. given all the bric-a-bracs thrown around. >> i think it's one of the great mysteries -- well, not mystery. the branding of huntsman as a moderate in this field to me is funny. if you look at his tax policy, his economic policy, it's fairly conservative. if you look at his foreign policy, it's traditionally conservative which is let's focus on homeland security and not have ventures outside of our borders. the only reason he's branded a moderate is because he believes in climate science and thinks

that gay marriage should be a civil right in some respects. those are not ideologically conservative things, but they are a belief in science and civil rights. i'm not entirely sure why he gets branded this way. >> i'll tell you why. because it's been his own emphasis. in politics, it's what you emphasize that matters. there are times i would get too far out on the right, and it would -- i'm very conservative economically, and my chief of staff would walk in and tell me how it works. you know what? you need to talk about the environment in a press release. because i was more moderate on the environment, more moderate on human rights, and we put something out to temper it with swing voters in my district. i wasn't changing -- i wasn't changing my views. i wasn't changing my views, i was just changing the focus. what i've seen with huntsman is, something i saw with mccain who was very conservative in areas. the primary process he seems to

take to like rubbing conservative noses in the dirt. jon huntsman should focus on his conservative economic credentials and stop talking about climate science, stop talking about how he believes in science. we know that already. tell us why you are a conservative 90% of the time. but his emphasis, i think has been off a bit. >> funny you should say that because he has a piece in the "wall street journal" today "too big to fail" is simply too big by jon huntsman. >> we'll get to that later. willie's news you can't use is next. -i love this card. -with the bankamericard cash rewards credit card, we earn more cash back for the things we buy most. it's 1% cash back everywhere, every time. 2% on groceries. 3% on gas. automatically. no hoops to jump through. that's 1% cash back on oscar. ...tony. oscar! 2% back on whatever she'll eat.

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tell me it is time. >> let's do some news you can't use. >> please. >> let's go back to vegas for the republican presidential field. they went after herman cain on the economy, you saw mitt romney getting heat on illegal immigration. but mostly, they spent two hours talking over each other. >> this is one night when i hope what happens in vegas doesn't stay in vegas. >> it's not -- >> you're shaking your head -- that happens. we got it -- you got it from the foundation and from you. >> that's not true. >> let me --

>> governor, governor -- you're allowed to change -- you're allowed -- >> rick, again, i'm speaking. i'm speaking. i'm speaking. >> it's time for you to tell the truth. >> you get 30 seconds. >> you're out of time. you're out of time. >> he ate into my time. number two. >> let me finish. >> you say you knew you had illegal -- >> are you going to keep talking? are you going to let me finish what i have to say? >> i love it. >> it's great. >> it was fabulous. >> that's america. that kind of conversation called to mind another. >> let's look. >> i'm going to be really raw with you. >> please. >> you're weird. >> you're weird. >> you are so weird. >> excellent. then stop talking about me. >> i never talk about you, darling.

you have given me so much stuff. >> it's not nice. you're not a nice person. >> as soon as they say to you, i'm sorry -- >> i'm over people. >> you think you know everything! >> i think andy lost control of that one. i'm going to come out and say it. i love the man, you've got to bring them together. "real housewives" reunion. it's a two-parter. we'll be right back with tina brown and chuck todd. ♪ [ cellphone rings ] cut! [ monica ] i have a small part in a big movie. i thought we'd be on location for 3 days, it's been 3 weeks. so, i used my citi simplicity card to pick up a few things. and i don't have to worry about a late fee. which is good... no! bigger! bigger! [ monica ] ...because i don't think we're going anywhere for a while.

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so there's a lot of big government behind romney care. not as much as obama care, but a heck of a lot more than your campaign has admitted. >> governor romney, 30 seconds. >> actually, newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you. >> that's not true. >> there was something -- we got it from you. you got it from the heritage foundation and from you. >> that's not true. you did not get that from me, you got it from the heritage foundation. >> and you've never supported -- >> i agree with them. but it plain wasn't true. that's not where you got it from. >> have you supported in the past an individual mandate? >> i did against hilary care. >> that's what i'm saying. we got the idea from you and the heritage foundation. >> it's the thing. he can afford to get his hands dirty. >> i've got to admit.

he nailed -- he completely -- mitt romney completely debone d herman cain's 9-9-9, made him look like an idiot. and no doubt, he got newt. finally admitting, yes, i did support an individual mandate. >> he was incredible. he was really good. >> i won't call it incredible, but he showed focus. i wouldn't call it fabulous either. it was all right. >> sam stein along with michael steele in washington. and joining the table, editor in chief of "newsweek" magazine and "the daily beast," tina brown. >> why was it not fabulous, joe? >> i think it showed competency. and most of the people on that stage are not confident debaters. i thought he did very well. michael steele, let me ask you as former republican chairman, do you agree that mitt romney had a great night? first of all taking down cain's

9-9-9 apples and oranges theory and then going after perry on illegal immigration, and then going after gingrich there and basically proving that newt was wrong? >> yeah, i do. i think he showed why he has been the front-runner for some time. he understands how this debate process works. and he managed it very well. you know, i guess he figured at some point they're going to gang up on me and he figured right last night and batted it back every time. and that's something that will begin to resinate with folks. his numbers may not move a whole lot, but for mitt romney right now, that's not the key ingredient. it's to stay slow and steady until january 3rd. >> and "newsweek's" cover this week, yes, we cain. you profile a man who is an unlikely front-runner. a man who if you read through pages of "newsweek" can only be

described as a story that's aspirational. >> it's so american. and my favorite thing in the entire profile of cain we did is this wonderful picture of herman cain and martha jones most likely to succeed. and there's something about this picture of cain -- >> hold it up, tina. right over here. look right there. yeah. so where is this? >> morehouse college when he was a student. and there's something about the sort of strut of cain in that picture. the aspiration, the desire to get ahead, the kind of very american sort of iconic moment of this -- these two people trying to get ahead in america from the ground up that i do think is enormously appealing. and although, of course, his 9-9-9 was taken apart by everyone on the platform, he does have a great appeal. i could see a romney/cain ticket, actually. i think they might be incredible as

>> oh, gosh. >> the pieces that would be written about his story the way they were written about barack obama's story. and a driver for coca-cola executive. first to go to the college, worked for the united states navy, served on the board of the kansas city federal reserve, ran godfather's pizza. that is a great american story. >> could you imagine the "vanity fair" spread on democrat herman cain? could you imagine the book deals, the $4 million book deals on herman cain? it would be manhattan like they obama four years ago. >> i think he's no less unlikely than barack obama kind of figure. i have to say, willie, one of the other things you mention that i think is enormously appealing that you didn't say was the guy's met a payroll. it's one of those things that i

do think americans right now are looking at these candidates and thinking one of two things. either they're thinking if they're out of work, which we know an enormous amount are saying, can these guys get me a job? and the others are saying, who is the candidate who isn't going to mess it up? who is going to let me fix my life? and in that sense, cain is a very appealing guy because he's met that payroll. and i don't think romney comes over as that. i think he comes over as a financial strategist kind of wall street guy, the guy with the severance package. >> i think it's a little different. i thk what we have is an election catered to what romney and cain can talk about. mitt romney's so much more comfortable in his skin in this election than he was in 2008 when it's all about terrorism. the problem for cain is when the conversation turns to foreign policy and he has no clue what he's talking about. and that's where he's going to run into -- >> that is problematic, he has no clue what he's talking about in foreign policy. >> nor did g.w. bush. >> he had more of a clue than

herman cain. i understand that's not a high bar. but he did have more of a clue. and you know what? i will tell you what, he had some of the best and brightest people around. >> he sure did. >> herman cain, got a guy from dayton, i think around him. not even the right -- >> you keep changing that town. first it's toledo. >> then in the same debate, he said cleveland, texas. >> exactly. >> we're looking forward to -- >> just to be clear, i don't think herman cain should or will be president based on his policies, i'm just saying he has a great personal story. >> he's got a remarkable -- >> he's actually quite guarded about his biography, it's curious. most love talking about their inspirational story. >> his story -- i want to pick up on something tina said here. i think she's touched on something. because mitt romney has tried to sell himself as a businessman. from the beginning. and if mitt romney had started a company like herman cain, it

would so much better. but mitt romney, whether this is a fair perception or not is seen as a wall street guy from bain capital, a wheeler dealer who ts the type of guy that people down on wall street are protesting against right now. where herman cain, who can protest against what herman cain did? herman cain started a business. this remarkable rise. given no breaks at all. >> to what tina just said and willie's touched on, i think what you're looking at down the road is a romney/cain ticket. the merging of wall street and main street coming together to go up against obama and biden and to talk in those terms, the real raw terms about creating jobs in a local economy versus creating jobs in a environmental economy. that's going to bean interesting debate with those

two guys. >> sam? >> yeah, we looked at the cain picture as emblematic of who he is. another picture that has really been emblematic, romney, a picture of him as a youth with bain capital with $20 bills coming out of his suit with his friends biting into -- >> willie and i do that downstairs all the time. >> that's a problem? >> biting into $20 bills. >> in fact, this purple tie is made of $100 bills. you're exactly right, though. >> campaigns are -- >> that's -- >> absolutely right. that's exactly right. perry got defined by that whole wind surfing photograph. i do think that people keep saying after the debate. well, romney held his ground. yes, he did, that's where he stayed. he never rose above the grod. and those fights with rick perry, i mean, rick perry has just this kind of -- >> how do you that situation? rise above? that is just -- did you see that on stage? >> let's listen and we'll have

tina respond and you say romney won. >> mitt, you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home and you knew about it for a year. and the idea that you stand here before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the heighth of hypocrisy. >> governor romney? >> rick, i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life. and so i'm afraid -- i'm looking forward to finding your facts on that. >> i'll tell you what the facts are, you had -- >> rick, i'm speaking, i'm speaking, i'm speaking. >> it's time for you to tell the truth. >> you've got 30 seconds. >> i get 60 seconds and then you get 30 seconds to respond, right? >> anderson -- would u please -- wait. are you going to keep talking? are you going to let me finish with what i have to say? look, rick. >> follow the rules.

>> this is a tough couple of debates for rick, and i understand that. so you're going to get testy. >> we hired a lawn company to mow our lawn. and they had illegal immigrants working there. and when that was pointed out to us, we let them go and went to them and said -- do you have a problem with allowing someone to finish speaking? and i suggest if you want to become president of the united states, you've got to let both people speak. >> i mean, tina, how do you rise abe -- >> a, humor. >> i think he was funny. >> not funny enough. i think he could've cut it off with jokes -- i also think appealing to the umpire is wet as we say in the uk. anderson, anderson? that isn't good. but you know, rick perry is like this overstuffed bar fly who gets nasty after a few drinks. he's coming off as a very nasty guy. >> i think it's sad that mitt romney doesn't have some better

counrparts to debate. i think the whole -- the level of the conversation would be a lot higher if there was a bigger game involved. >> surely obama -- >> look at that. >> i mean, the thing is, mitt romney has actually had a bunch of easy, easy debates up until this point where someone took a punch at him. and especially on health care reform, which was supposed to be this hu-- he loved the mandate before romney endorsed it. >> unfortunately, rman cain is the front runner of the race, had eyes on him at the beginning of the night. his republican rivals took turns slamming him. went after him from left and right. talking about apples and oranges and baskets and misplaced metaphors and bouncing okies. >> all over the place. >> metaphors -- lose those metaphors. >> reports are now out that 84% of americans would pay taxes

under his plan. >> i love you, brother, but let me tell you something, go to new hampshire where they don't have a sales tax and you're fixing to give them one. they're not interested in 9-9-9. >> the state tax is an apple. we are replacing the current tax code with oranges. so it's not correct to mix apples and oranges. >> herman, are you saying that the state sales tax will also go away? >> no, that's an apple. we're replacing a bunch of oranges. >> and i'm going to be getting a bushel basket with apples and oranges in it because i'm going to pay both taxes and people in nevada don't want to pay both taxes. >> you said that mr. cain's plan would be a harder sell than he let on. how so? >> well, you just watched it. >> that's a great comment from newt. also, i thought mitt romney's point that he was now going to have a basket of apples and oranges, taxes, state -- i thought that was a great point. the only thing i'm wondering,

mika, why rick perry would continually call herman cain brother. i suspect if i had a hunting camp with the name that rick perry's hunting camp would be. i'm just saying, i would tread lightly on using brother this or brother that or whatever. >> that's a very good point. >> on that happy note, let's go now to washington, d.c. and by the way, i know i'm not the only one thinking that last night. nbc news chief white house correspondent political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. chuck, last night, i've got to say, was the most fascinating debate, the most moving parts. >> yes. >> the most action. what was your read as you turned off the tv set? and thought about winners and losers? >> well, i thought immediately i was watching "anchorman" in the

scene where they all started fighting with each other. >> that accelerated quick. >> that accelerated quickly. i think somebody killed a man out there. >> with a trident. >> rick, you killed a guy with a trident. >> when you look back at this thing, this was just not a good night for anybody. it was sort of you get the feeling that everybody i'm guessing woke up this morning and went, what did we just do? what did we just go through? even newt gingrich who has tried not to be an attack dog in this, he got sucked into it and had that petty exchange with mitt romney. you were for it, no i wasn't, heritage was -- what are you guys arguing over? over who was for something what first? romney i thought at times when he was trying to control the conversation, you know, when he reached over and you do that debate no-no, right? when you touch another opponent

in that violation of personal space can feel awkward to the viewer. rick perry's attack came out of left field. is this a question about health care? if he's going to attack, it's going to be about health care, right? it was like, whoa, whiplash. put all that together and you're like, who had a good night? and i guess i'm not sure anybody really had a good night because everybody seemed a little bit wounded. >> i seem -- i guess i'm alone on this. because, chuck, i thought mitt romney had a great night. i really do. i think the one kind of visceral reaction that people have to him is, eh, what does he stand for? he doesn't seem -- last night, i feel like he put it all on the table, punching back to everybody. laughing it off. >> the video we've played all morning has been him losing his cool next to perry. >> was it losing his cool or just pushing back? i don't mind that. if somebody's dead wrong, get right in their face and tell

them why. >> and i think, mika, you come -- it's interesting you say that. i wish we had formal focus groups. and when you watch some of the reaction and you see what some people reacted to last night whether it was on twitter or another thing, i got the sense that people that have been wanting to see these candidates attack romney were happy and people that wanted to see romney show he could fight back were happy. so i get what you're saying on that front. but you know, there were a couple of things. for instance, when romney said, you know what? i didn't get costs down in massachusetts. i thought there were some mistakes that romney made that might haunt him down the road. in particular, that one comment when he said, yep, i didn't get costs down in massachusetts. >> let me ask you something that i asked michael steele in the last hour, what is it going to take for the republican party to fall in love with mitt romney. they've tried everybody else. we've seen these huge fluctuations in the polls when cain goes up 20 and perry down 20.

he's been steady over the last couple of months. when are they finally going to be? in iowa, new hampshire, the party going to throw their arms around him? >> i just heard tina brown talking about john kerry. >> it is, it's the same thing. he was terrific in some of the debates. he was a good arguer. i've got to tell you, the one take away moment from the debate really was michele bauchmann talking about women at the end of their rope. i really thought that was moving and cut through to me. >> chuck, when does -- >> well, i think -- ultimately, i think it's florida, and i think ultimately it's the obama campaign attacks romney, i think that helps romney ultimately. because the enemy of my -- you know, of the person. let's use the bar analogy. since the mitt romney character on snl. if somebody else is interested in somebody you've been talking

to but you weren't that interested but somebody else shows interest, then suddenly you might be more interested, the more the obama campaign hits romney in an odd way, i think that does help him with the republican base. and eventually brings everybody around to him. but you know what? i think what we saw last night, it's going to be a long, hard road. he's going to have to take a lot of punches. >> chuck todd. thank you so much. we'll see you on "the daily rundown" at 9:00 eastern time here on msnbc. he calls herman cain's 9-9-9 plan dangerous for this country. grover norquist will join the conversation. and next, we're going to talk to republican senator from oklahoma, tom coburn. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ horn honks ]

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what i've said is i understand the frustrations that are being expressed in those protests. in some ways, they're not that different from some of the protests that we saw coming from the tea party. you know, both on the left and the right. i think people feel separated from their government. they feel that their institutions aren't looking out for them. >> with us now, republican senator from oklahoma, senator tom coburn. good to see you, buddy. how are you doing? >> good to see you, joe. >> let's talk about these protests that are happening on wall street. and actually, happening across the world. there seems to be a growing disconnect in this country especially between washington and the voters. you're the person who a year or two ago famously said when we told you that the approval

rating for congress was 12%, i want to know who those 12% are. and we all laughed. there's a certain gallows humor to it. it seems like things have gotten even worse. what's going on, tom? >> i think there's a deficit of real leadership. treating the american people like adults rather than children, being honest with them about the situations we find ourselves in. and the possible options for -- and solutions for those difficulties. by not speaking to that directly, what we've done is we've said, oh, you're not big enough to take it even though whatever our errors have been in the past, we don't think we can truthfully speak to you about the significance of the problems we're having. and i think most americans whether on the right or left, they would like to be treated as grown-ups to hear what the real truth is. and we have very few people speaking what the real truth is to the american people today about the difficulties that we face. >> what are some of the real

truths that the leaders in washington are afraid to tell the american people? >> well, they're afraid to tell it because they're afraid it might affect their next election chances. number one, there's no way medicare's going to be the same it is today five years from now because we can't borrow the money to do it. quit lying to seniors and say we're not going to change medicare. you're going to have to change medicare, we're going to make it good or better, but it's going to have to be changed, reorganized. social security, we've got $18 trillion unfunded liability just on the people that are in it. it has to be changed. it doesn't mean we have to decrease benefits, but we have to change it for those that are going to come afterwards and to say we're not going to touch it because it might affect us politically is absolutely failed leadership. so anybody that says i want to walk away from these things that seniors, the most powerful voting block in our country care about, what they're being is dishonest with them and treating them like children. americans will stand up and solve the problems that we have, if, in fact, we come to them and ask them for help.

we don't have anybody willing to do that, republican or democrat, president or congress. nobody's -- everybody's gaming the system right now. and it's pretty sickening. >> it is pretty sickening, tom. you've been fighting for these things for some time, just telling the truth about our entitlement crisis. what about our tax system? which allows inequities that i know you don't support. that cause a lot of republicans, a lot of conservatives i know great concern that the largest corporations on the planet are paying less in taxes than secretaries who work for those corporations that you've got millionaires and billionaires paying an effect of 17%, 18% tax rate. isn't that number three in medicare and social security? isn't number three the bitter truth -- we're going to reform our tax system in a way that grows our economy over the next quarter century? >> well, actually, it's bigger than number one or number two. because one of the reasons we're having trouble creating a

dynamic economy now besides the absence of leadership in washington and anybody believing with any certainty somebody has a plan that will solve our problems is that tax code that's loaded with tax earmarks that are defended by groups like atr that think that's just fine where you have winners and losers. we spend $250 billion each year. at a certain date, like four months from now, that tax code's gone. now, congress, you've got four months. congress and the president, you've got four months, put a tax code in that's stimulative to the country, still slightly progressive, fair, and make sure everybody's participating in carrying the load in this country. i mean, the american people would accept that. >> no doubt. sam stein? >> senator, quick question for you. you talked about the need for an honest conversation on reforming medicare and social security. in august, when the president and speaker boehner were talking about this grand bargain, on the

table were raising the eligibility age for medicare. looking back on those failed discussions, how big of a setback was it they weren't able to hammer out a deal? and looking back to the super committee, what are your concerns about the cuts that are entailed if this committee remains deadlocked? >> well, first of all, i didn't vote for this package that created this because the easiest way for politicians to get out of being culpable, it's a height of irresponsibility. medicare has $100 billion a year in fraud in it. nothing's being done significantly. the justice department is better than the bush administration on that area, but that's the only thing they're better about. we have an incentive that says don't participate in making an

evaluation about how much money you spend in medicare. we ought to go the other way. it's a shame no grand bargain was made. but the fact is, we still have big problems. the world's waiting for us to see. are we going to be greece in two years? or are we going to act like grown-ups? and our political class in this country refuses to take the responsibility and actually maybe lose an election to do the right thing for the country. and we don't have that leadership. and either party. it's how do we protect our own? and what we ought to be is how do we protect our future? and how do we do what's best and right at this time for our country regardless of what the political ramifications are? because it's really not going to matter. because in about 2 1/2 years, if we don't have real leadership in this country to address our very real problems on the fiscal issue, it's going to be out of our control, and it's going to be in the control of those

lonilone i loaning us money. >> first off, i want to thank the senator for his continued push in trying to move everybody to the right spot in this. this question, though, focuses on the difference -- in your opinion between what we see happening with the protests on wall street versus what we saw over the past year, the protests on main street by tea parties. how is that resinating on the hill right now, particularly with the house and senate republican leadership? >> gosh, you know, michael, i'm not sure i can give you an answer to that. i see a big difference in the two groups. one is kind of an organized collection of a group of people that are highly frustrated with things that are in the country. and the other has been a ground swell that's been building for a long time, and i'm talking about the tea party. i talked about them four years ago on the senate floor. that people have recognized we

have a government that's way beyond the bounds anybody ever expected it to be who actually was in on the founding of the first 100 years of this country. and now we can't afford it. and you saw that frustration with the broad cross section of american people. i know a lot of people think the tea partiers are nuts. i find them very enjoyable because they actually know what the constitution says and would like to see the government back within it. and it's a very diverse group of people. and so i don't know what the leadership thinks on it. the fact is, everybody in america's anxious because there's no leadership. everybody's looking for some certainty and some clarification about the future, but there's no leadership on either party. nobody will put out a vision that says we can come together in this country and we can solve our problems, we ought to be about doing it. >> senator tom coburn, thank you so much for being with us. >> you bet. >> good to see you, joe. one republican congressman says grover norquist's pledge is

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now media critic from "the new yorker" writing about jill abrahamson taking over as executive editor of "new york times." jill takes over, how do things change? >> well, unlike when hal raines took over ten years ago and his idea was to uproot everything and create a new -- it's -- she was managing editor. so it's going to be a continuum. her pitch to the publisher and chairman was that she will focus on the digital side and make it a different kind of newspaper, an electronic newspaper. he knows that's the future. >> and she said in an interview on cbs over the weekend that she could see a day, perhaps not in

the too distant future where there is not a physical "new york times" -- she didn't say it was imminent, she said, yes, i could see that day on the horizon. >> it's possible. they've done very well with the payroll where they charge to read the online newspaper. the problem is that you get about 10% of the money for an ad online as you get for an ad in the newspaper. and that's the economic problem. >> so raines caused an absolute stir. and you had keller come in who did a remarkable job. he really, what a great selection. and what a great job he did. how does jill fit? in between those vastly different personalities? >> well, one of the points i make in the piece, and it's a kind of a narrative through line is that there's a worry in the newsroom that she has some tendencies that hal had. the kind of bruskness, not

listening and very exacting standards. and she's not hal raines. i mean, he was a much tougher hombre, but that's a worry people have. on the other hand, she was bill keller's partner for eight years. >> she saw what worked for bill. i mean -- if she -- she was his partner, and she obviously saw -- >> and also -- >> what worked and what didn't work with "the times." >> also, if you know that about yourself -- i do think one of the problems with hal raines, his deputy also wasn't a people person. you didn't have anybody to be his good cop. and i think i'm not sure yet about jill's own management structure. but she's going to need that good cop person to go out there and do all that massaging because all the people management is the hellish part. >> and when arthur salzburger asked her at a lunch interview,

he said what are your weaknesses? and to tina's point, she said i have to listen more, i have to stop interrupting people, and i know that's a weakness i have. it was a weakness that hal had. but hal didn't know he had -- >> and he would've never said it. as long as you know it, you can legislate. you know, but you have to know it first. >> sam, you've been talking about this piece this morning, it's just a great -- >> it's a great piece. and one of the things -- it sort of gives you a window as to what the paper's going to be like in a year or two. and one of the things that stuck out is how jill wanted more resources on investigative reporting and what she called scooplets. the sort of limited non -- you could say limited political stories that ended up being discarded in the trash the next hour. as you interviewed her and talked to her, what can you see for the future of the "new york times"? >> well, she takes great pride in looking at today's headline and saying let's look around the corner. today, you mentioned murdoch.

and there's a huge story on page one of "new york times" about the relationship of murdoch and his son james. jill is the kind of person who would look at and say, both murdochs testified, they seem to be close. let's look around the corner. what is the real nature of that relationship? bingo. they have this huge off-lead story on page one. knowing jim abramson -- the relationship between james and his dad is frayed, what happens to newscorp? >> and jill's going to be on next week talking about her book and we'll ask her about your article. but tina, james is not a slam dunk to be an heir apparent. that's what this "new york times" story says. it's probably not going to happen. >> james has blown it, actually, quite badly. >> lying to parliament? >> but also, he's being overconfident, overbrash. i think one of the things this

whole phone-hacking handling which has been by james primarily has shown is he doesn't have his father's astuteness, subtlety, smartness about how to put out fires and do it properly with no fingerprints. james has been caught lying and that would not have happened to his father. to parliament. that's not cool to do that. >> not cool at all. >> and so what are you going to do? ultimately, he's going to have to come back to new york with his tail between his legs and i think rupert in the end if he has to choose between his company and his really very sort of stubborn son, he's going to go with the business. >> wow. >> if it doesn't go to the stubborn son, if the succession plan doesn't go as originally planned, does it change the company? >> well, yeah. rupert murdoch has this belief and love for newspapers, yet his

newspapers, "the new york post" loses a fortune, over $1 billion since he's owned it, just the "new york post." his newspapers are not -- and they're declining. and will the next person who takes over newscorp have the same love of newspapers? the "wall street journal" is not wildly profitable. >> anybody that lives in new york says he owns the "new york post" for reasons that have -- >> it's business. >> -- little to do with the love of newspapers. he does love newspapers, but that is a club that he wields in new york that scares people. >> will his successor? >> no, because he likes the blood sport. he likes the blood sport of the political media access. >> state and national politics. >> you bet. >> he likes the sport too, loves the stories too. >> once when i was reporting, actually tina, and someone said,

rue per rupert, why are we spending this money? and he says, you're doing the wrong kind of arithmetic, my friend. >> that's something he understands that his son probably does not. >> front page in the "new york times." good to see you. tina brown, good to see you. we'll see you soon. grover norquist joins us next on "morning joe." 4g-- the next evolution in wireless technology.

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so if i didn't know better i'd say you're having some sort of big tire sale. yes we are. yeah. how many tires does ford buy every year? over 3 million. you say you can beat any advertised price on tires? correct. anywhere? yes. like this price? yes. riously? yes what about this one? i'll beat it. this one? s we will. right, i only have one more question for you...this one? (laughing) yeah. get $100 rebate when you buy four tires. 100 bucks! only at your ford dealer. 3 million tires. 11 major brands, fiona's kind-of-nice. i don't know why you're not here. in fairness to the members of the senate, one, they did not know many of the groups that mr. norquist was connected with. he was a lobbyist for fannie e

mae. >> most people don't know that. >> now, i'm opposed to gambling, but to be a lobbyist for internet gambling. my concern is that the pledge has been used -- he was connected to jack abranoff. so when people signed the pledge, they didn't know it goes to that point. what they say -- so i don't fault anyone who signed the pledge. that means they want lower taxes. they want to keep -- but what we're trying to do is lower the tax rate, bring the tax rates down by eliminating the earmark. >> 47 past the hour. that was republican congressman frank wolf of virginia on "morning joe" yesterday outlining his concerns with the tax pledge that all by six congressional republicans have signed. and with us now from washington, the president of americans for tax reform, grover norquist -- >> boy, grover, that's an unholy alliance.

internet gambling, jack abranoff and fannie mae. what say you? >> well, several things. congressman wolf for the last four years has been in favor of a significant tax increase. he's endorsed the $2 trillion tax increase that simpson/bowles recommended. so he and i and the republican caucus and i are in a different place than the congressman is. they registered everybody saying that they worked on those two issues. that was ten years ago, and it wasn't actually something i worked on. i think if you -- >> yeah. >> if you have to argue that kind of thing, you're trying to distract people from the reality. >> i mean, ten years ago, grover. >> yeah. >> we were sharing a jail cell in turkey. i mean, obviously, not that relevant. let me ask you, though -- >> he has trouble with tenses. >> i asked frank about a good

friend of mine, a guy i loved working with, i asked him about the ten to one question in an earlier debate where i said it was lunacy if the republicans were given a real chance to have $10 in spending cuts for every $1 in tax increases, why wouldn't they take that in the real world? >> true. >> and frank said they should. what's your response? >> well, we've actually tested this. weapon don't have to wonder what might happen. and this is why i think the pledge is exactly the solution to the problem that you and i would see. in 1982, the democrats went to reagan, saying we'll give you $3 of spending cuts for every $1 tax increase. spending increased more rapidly after that deal than had been scheduled to. so you didn't get $3 of cuts, you got increases. then eight years later, george herbert walker bush in 1990 went to andrew air force base. he was a cheaper date, he was

offered $2 of imaginary spending cuts for every $1 of real tax increases. when of real tax increase. when taxes are put on the table as an option, the promised spending disappears. we have been through this twice. every dollar of spending disappears. the only thing that happened was the tax increase. what happened this year? this year the leadership in the house and the senate which both didn't approve of, but we are not raising taxes. we got $2.5 trillion of spending cuts, legislatively, no tax increase. when taxes are on the table, no spending cuts. when taxes are off, you get spending cuts. >> we have always said, you give washington more money, they are going to spend it. >> of course they are. >> they're going to spend the money, but not cut the deficit.

>> the theory of both, we had three experiments and it doesn't happen. unicorps exist, except they don't. now we move to tax reform and the pledge is more important there. the only time we got real tax reform was in 1986. president reagan said we will reform taxes and get rid of deductions in neutral. >> let me ask you about this pledge. we have a problem in washington. people don't like washington. they are tired of democrats and republicans and they are tired of congress and the way everybody is not getting along. don't you think the pledge to an extent feeds into that. it forces people to double down on ideology and doesn't lead people to have conversations that might cause.

>> they make a commitment to their constituents and not to me. here's what i'm going to do. i'm not going to raise the taxes. no net tax increase. the senator misspoke when he said it got rid of credit. it's one sentence. the purpose of the pledge was in 86 and remains to facilitate reform so it doesn't get turned into a trojan horse. the american people only let you reform taxes if they know you are not tricking them into a tax increase. >> i worry it facilitates other problems as well. president for americans for tax reform. >> thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. what do you worry about? the tax rate? >> absolutely. >> exactly. thank you.

>> the economic mix is so complicated, you take the economy of the 1990s versus the first decade of the 21st century and marginal rates were higher and we were growing and thinking and creating things. it can tend to simplify. >> as an opening position, you look at the strategy of it and it works. the president blinked this time. of course i signed it. we'll have tax reform and we have to bring more revenue in. >> the that being said part. >> there you go. >> we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ hey! it says just take one! i can't read.

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you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home and you knew about it for a year. the idea that you stand here before us and talk about you are strong on immigration is on its face, hypocrisy. >> i don't think i have ever hired an illegal in my life and i'm looking forward to finding your facts on that. >> i will show you what the facts are. >> rick, i'm speaking. i'm speaking. i'm speaking. you get 30 seconds and that's the way the rules work. i get 60 seconds and you get 30 seconds to respond. anderson? would you please wait? are you going keep talk something let me finish with

what i have to say. look, rick. this is a tough couple of debates for rick and i understand that. you are going to get tested. we hired a lawn company to mow our lawn and when we realized they had illegals working for them we let them go. you have a problem with allowing someone to speak. if you want to be president of the united states, you have to let both people speak. >> it's 8:00 on the east coast. you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." sam stein and john meachem along with michael steele in washington. >> that was something last night. >> it was great actually. mitt romney was fabulous. >> starting to grab mitt romney with an audience and cheer for him.

>> they said he lost it or whatever and no, i liked seeing him. this is what he will do. i want to see a president if we have one really speak up for himself. these characters, these clowns were all honing in and he pushed back. that's good, no? >> i don't know. there is another side of that. >> what's the other side? >> it came to us in the form of a quip off stage. we go down the line and we shake hands with orphans and anybody else. john meachem while we were doing the rope line he said you know, i was just warning governor romney we should never get into a fight with a guy who shoots coyotes in the face. that is a good point. the question is, if you are the front-runner, do you want to get down in the mud? >> i think so because right now

of the only person who hasn't put ahead in the polls who was wayne newton. >> he had a good seat. >> he went in and did that. >> i heard that. that was good. >> he can sing, but go ahead. >> i agree. he was great. i thought it was -- i guess it was from a disproportionate level of rule-keeping. are you going to talk? are you going to talk? i don't see him doing that. i don't mind. i'm all for it, but i don't think that is a qualification. come on. i don't think that shows a spirit that is going to -- >> after he finally got them to shut up, he would have something to say. i think that helps. >> we will see that rick perry, i can't believe they sent in

rick pery this morning. >> you will spontaneously combust. >> if i am going to defend him, let me talk. better that rick perry show up and not fall asleep, even if he is rude. >> and wrong. and has the facts wrong. >> as bill clinton said, better strong and wrong. >> rick perry, i think if you are rick perry and leading the debate, you have to be happy. >> i guess so, but he had great energy last night. that's probably not a great sign for the campaign. the central issue that he took up last night was led to the fights with mitt romney about illegal immigration and didn't take hold four years ago that he employed a landscaping company that hired illegal immigrants. he said you support illegal immigration and i'm not sure the public is on board with that.

>> we talked about this earlier. mitt romney should not be responsible for what they are employing, but it gets to the traditional charge against mitt romney. he will say something publicly and do something else or believe something privately. that might be what he is doing. >> might have wanted to say that. >> don't let anything get you. that's rick perry's problem. he can't finish so the heights. even in the search. it sounds like an eastern elite boy. let's go to michael steele. >> blithering heights. >> exactly. let's talk about last night. i actually think it's one of the

circumstances that it's a win-win for both. romney showed he could be tough and perry is dead-on the illegal immigration issue. that said, as you know because you have run for office and i have run for office, when you are trailing somebody like perry is trailing romney now, all you want to do in a debate is draw them into a battle. you and them next to each other. by that standard, rick perry won. >> i'm with you, but at the same time yeah. you want to be scrapy and perry was a lot scrappy. it reminded me of my former brother-in-law's fights. you see a tyson fight and you are about to open up a can of whoop as and you don't want the other guy to use it on you. he got owned several times when he engaged that way.

the reality of it is if you start that kind of fight, you have to finish it. i don't think he finished it. the standard is he showed energy and he was awake and his lips were moving and words were coming out of his mouth. >> let's leave that. i tried to defend it, but it didn't take. >> he dresses like a badminten player and talks like a wrestler. >> all eyes were on herman cain at the night. the gop rivals slammed his 9-9-9 plan to reform the tax code. take a listen. >> reports are out that 84% of americans would pay more taxes under his plan. >> you don't have to have a big analysis to figure this thing out. go to new hampshire why where

they don't have a sales tax and you are fixing to give them one. they are not interested in 9-9-9. >> we are replacing the tax code with oranges. it's not correct to mix apples and oranges. you saying the state sales tax will go away? >> no. that's an apple. we are replacing a bunch of oranges. >> i will get a bushel basket with apples and oranges and the people of nevada don't want to pay both taxes. >> you said it would be a harder sell than he lets on. how so? >> you just watched it. >> that was one of the best lines from the night from gingrich. you just saw it. poor herman is talking about apples and oranges and they were misplaced metaphors falling to the side left and right. >> that's the way the cookie bounces. >> exactly. >> again, how could you not say

mitt romney was not perfect. he was like okay. let me help the poor man along. >> mitt romney deboned him. >> this was a case where the campaign worked well. they had a plan five days ago that went through and you saw how aggressive it was. everyone on the stage was dismantling it. he put a end to the notion of 9-9-9. i wrote about this notion in politico yesterday. conservatives and not conservati conservative-free. you are not a real conservative and the same thing they said about palin and she wasn't going to win it and go through it and perry wasn't going to win it and cain now. how he took great pride in

ignorance in foreign policy. i don't know who the leader of uzbekistan is. last night, before the debate we saw how determiningous that ignorance was. i suspect like rick perry's stance of illegal immigration was, what he said before the debate. he is so unschooled in foreign policy. the slip up he made will finish him in the republican party. listen to this and what he said in reference to the recent prisoner swap between israel and hamas. listen about a similar swap for one american soldier and all the terrorists at get mow. >> i could see myself authorizing that transfer, but i would make sure i got all of the information. i got all of the input and credit all the options and the president has to be the

president and make a judgment call. i can make that call if i had to. >> you could make that call and we could also turn the pentagon over to giraffes and zebras, but you wouldn't want to make that call. nor would anybody that had any idea about how to run foreign policy. that was a shocking peek into how ignorant this man is. he would release the prisoners for one american soldier. >> to his credit he admitted he misspoke. i think it's been an odd infatuation with the non-romneys. it started last spring with trump, your buddy. i'm sorry.

we go through this every cycle. >> it continued through michele bachmann who is not ready to be president and perry who can't articulate a basic vision for america. we are going to cain now. this is unprecedented. >> a significant gap about romney that i think will be overcome because republicans -- >> didn't that help last night? >> perhaps. >> it certainly was more of a character. he is in a caricature and he made an impression. >> he stood up for himself. i am not going to put up with this anymore. >> you may be right. let's finish this story on cain. last night michele bachmann who had really good moments last

night as did newt gingrich. they had pretty darn good nights. this is what michele bachmann said about herman cain's indefensible statement before the show. >> for any candidate to say that they would release the prisoners at guantanamo in exchange for a hostage would be absolutely contrary to the historical nature of the united states and what we do in our policy. that's naive. we cannot do this. the united states has done well because we have an absolute policy. we don't negotiate. >> i said they believe in the philosophy of we don't negotiate with terrorists. i would never agree to letting hostages in guantanamo bay go. no, that wasn't the intent at all. >> afterward, anderson cooper, asking about whether he meant it

or not and he said i misspoke. he was asked the question beforehand. it just shows that this man doesn't know what he is doing. he makes it up as he goes along. he is caught in first place in the middle of a book tour and i'm not even trying to be funny. he is ill-equipped to answer the basic questions. >> i would agree with that and the interesting thing is the next debate on foreign policy. they have got to get him up to speed, but quick. i have two problems. not just the foreign policy, but the 9-9-9. there is a fundamental question on the 9-9-9. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's not a chicken. it's an orange. you can't sit out there and put it out there and just because you have this mojo with the

voters and they like the way you sound, that's going to take care of the foreign policy problems and the tax problems. herman cain has a lot of boning up to do if he is going to ride the momentum to the white house. >> someone who follows republican policy closely, why hasn't mitt romney made that jump? if all the cartoon characters were so ridiculous and they fluctuate up and down, why does mitt romney stay at the 25% mark and risen above this pack of characters? >> because there is a narrative out there about mitt romney that set in. i think to some degree he has begun to chisel away. his likability and he's got this stiff upper lip approach and he gets prickly and all of that

greats on the nerves of a lot of people. it goes back to the campaign where everyone who was running against a person said they didn't like them and didn't want to be on the stage with them. all that was bubbled into and baked into the attitude that people have about him and it's a problem. i think he will overcome it. >> i didn't see him get prickly. i thought it worked. >> middle america may suspect a mitt romney that when the cameras turned off and nobody is looking he dresses like michael steele. >> up next, coming of age in a post pope america. >> post pope? >> hope. >> i thought the pope lived in italy or something. >> it's one of the most iconic photographs to emerge from the civil rights movement. tracing the lives of these two

women and the complex relationship that followed. that's coming up. >> nothing complex about bill. >> right there. what you see is what you get. bill? >> nothing here. good morning, the air forces worse than this. one-hour delays at la guardia, but jfk is not reporting delays. philadelphia is okay and the same with d.c. and atlanta and chicago. they have windy conditions or rain and not reporting a lot of delays and that will change as the day goes on and the traffic increases. the green is rain and continuing to be light rain from d.c. to baltimore and fill to new york and approaching areas like boston. down in the south, huge thunderstorm this is morning from key west to miami. they are just staying south of miami. if you are driving down below miami, that's the worst weather in the country. there is the forecast as advertised. it's a gleam fall day. watch out chicago, high winds up

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>> thieves in virginia stole a truck containing president obama's teleprompter. it got a lot of news attention today. i think the president is doing fine without his teleprompter. take a look. >> thank you.

ancestors came over on a -- would you rather fight for -- time for games in politics -- an e-mail and tweet and fax -- thank you very much. thank you. >> wow. joining us now for new york magazine is noreen malone coming of age in america.

>> it's hope. all about the hope. >> it's hopeful. >> let's start quickly by defining the group you are talking about. who are they? >> the group i'm writing about is people essentially born in the 80s who are now in their 20s and that includes myself. >> what's the post hope world? what are they walking into? >> you know the stats because the economy is not doing well and affecting people in their 20 no, sir a real way. only 55% of young people are employed right now. that's not something that will affect us right now. that will carry into the future. that's fairly alarming. >> obviously there is serious data that backs up why they are having a hard time. is there something about you described these young people in not the best way. not all the best way. is there a sense of entitlement or other issues leading to the problems they are having.

>> i don't love the word entitlement. >> i don't either. help me with it. >> it's an easy way of summing up characteristics. we are people who have been more focused on ourselves and achievement and as a generation we have the highest recorded self esteem in history. we have broken it. >> this is true. i hear this all the time. >> i was talking to a group of women in the 20 somethings they expect the most out of the first jobs they get. >> is that so bad? >> there is the whole thing about starting at the bottom and work your way to the top and understanding what it really means and working for it and getting it when you deserve it. >> of course and people want the chance to work for it. >> absolutely. >> that's a chance that really has been taken away. they have been told if you work hard. they didn't just waltz in and expect a job to be handed to them. they worked very, very hard throughout high school and college and invested serious

time and money. they have a crushing burden of debt and if you work hard and work for your chances it will pay off. it's not paying off now and not going to pay off in the future. >> that's frightening for sam stein who is about to go into his 20s right now. this is what you write. the kids are all right in the early days of the recession, i was jealous of friends who lost their jobs. when you are young enough from the outside the lay off can look like liberation. it seemed like an opportunity to do more of the semi sanctioned and scripted screwing around that goes with this decade of life, but stops feeling like fun when it's not a choice. what income you are fortunate enough to have is highly non-disposable and hard to avoid maturity if you are worried it

is more like maturity is escaping you. >> that's another criticism that is the next generation above us. people in their 20s now said we are adults. people who are living as teenagers in our 20s. maybe for some that is what we want to do, but for many who want to reach the adult markers and have children and want to buy a house, you cannot. they can't afford the payments and move out of their homes. >> this is a shock to this generation. you are in your 20s. you grew up and were you surround by people? it feels like everybody had everything. >> everybody had everything no matter who you were. >> we are talking about middle class and upper middle class and elite kids who went to the best schools and the kids that

weren't getting jobs in the 90s may have gone to community college or no college at all. now you have kids graduateing for ivy league school who is can't find jobs. >> they have been teed up. >> that are doesn't get as much sympathy if the guy from harvard can't get a job. that is not as sympathetic. that is a real hurt people are dealing with. >> i will say the word entitled. i think a lot in our generation are a sense of entitlement. we have been handed things that our parents could never take for granted. regarding education and i know some who have put off going to the job market because they couldn't find the job they wanted and instead of going with a law school, in the process they end up getting more and more debt. to try to tie to current affairs on monday, a lot of that is what

you see with occupy wall street. they have been handed this dream of what my life would lock like and i am saddled with debt. >> i think this is more of a debate i was having with my friends. people are in part to blame for overextending themselves. there is not evil doers on one side. michael steele has a question. >> i have one of the millennials who got a job after 2 1/2 years after graduating and understand what that celebration is like. thank you. he can help pay the rent. the fact remains that it's an interesting aspect of this generation that i hear from employers out there. this sense of okay, i submitted my resume online and do you get the sense of getting into the market place to really carve

their way through and carve out the space or have we really i think misserviced or disserviced the generation by giving them everything and making it so much easier to get the information and put the resume online and to wait for someone to come and say you are a beautiful thing. here, do this. >> i don't think that's what's going on at all. almost everyone i talk to who was unemployed or underemployed sent out hundreds of e-mails looking for work. that's not just uploading it to some service. they were following up and making phone calls. i don't think that people find it easier to find work nowadays. >> there is a face-to-face quality that is gone from the process. we used to knock on doors. >> did you literally knock on the door? >> yeah.

>> he rejected me not once, not twice, but three times. >> you have a great point about a great van. remarkable harmony and they borrow a lot from crosby, stills, nash, and young. they looked outward in changing the world and folk music these days, alternative folk music is inward-turning and self absorbed. >> that has a negative contation a little bit. >> that's why i said it. i love the way fox is. there is a self-absorbed trait to a lot of 20-year-olds. >> this entitlement. >> i don't think that's new to the generation, that's part of being young. this is one example among many.

there fans there who are protesting. they are not so much in the mainstream. that's a characteristic occupy wall street and what we want is a chance to show up and put on a suit and tie. that's not a radical thing. that's not what they were protesting against in the 60s. that's pretty telling. >> fascinating conversation. >> fascinating story. >> thank you so much. come of age in a post pope america is a cover story in new york magazine. a remarkable story about one of the most iconic photographs of the civil rights movement. ♪ ♪ ♪ when your chain of supply ♪ goes from here to shanghai, that's logistics. ♪

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. i should like to speak to you about the situation that has a risen. in that city under the leadership of demagoguic extremists, disorderly mobs have prevented that carrying out proper orders from a federal court. the supreme court for the united states has decided that separate public educational facilities for the races are inherently unequal. >> the desegregation of the

little rock schools in 1957, a pivotal moment in the civil rights movement. this photo has become the lasting image of that historic day. now over 50 years later what has become of those two women in that iconic moment? author and writer chronicles the twists and turns of the women's relationship in the new book, elizabeth and hazel, two women are little rock. >> let's show that picture again. how would you describe that? >> a great idea for a book. >> you use the word? >> i could use the word iconic. i don't like to because it's a cliche. there you see the racial antagonism of the south and arguably america in the 1950s. it's encapsulated in this picture. >> how important was this in moving the civil rights debate along.

>> very important because it agitated people and embarrassed the united states into trying to get its act together. it aroused even louie armstrong to comment. everybody was embarrassed by the picture. even segregationists were embarrassed the. >> this is the study and what moved you all these years to go back to this 1957 photo that could have set in motion events that led to the world we live in today? >> i think that the picture itself is so compelling, one account never say the first time you see this picture it seeps into your consciousness when you were a kid and it was always part of my historical knowledge. i was interested in the picture from the time i was 5 or 6 or 7 and first saw it. i went back to little rock in 1999 and discovered that the two of them had reunited.

there was a second dimension to the picture. it wasn't just 1957 and 1997. they had come together and when i started to study the situation and learn more about their relationship, i learned that in 1962, the white girl, hazel brian, actually call and apologized to elizabeth. >> wow. >> of course in 1962, the civil rights story had yet to be told. >> nobody was doing this. no white women were doing this. >> no white women were doing this sort of thing. she lived in a world in arkansas where her actions would be understood by the white majority. there wasn't the public pressure. what moved her in 1962 to make amends? >> she was 20 years old. she had a couple of young kids. she was horrified by the idea that they were going to grow up and realize that was their

mother in the picture. and she wanted to make amends and realized she was also watching what was going on on television and seeing the fire hoses in birmingham and the german shepherds attack black protesters and she was watching dr. martin luther king on television. >> she realized she was on the wrong side? >> and she had a debt to pay. she picked up the phone and tracked down elizabeth and called and said i'm the girl in the picture and i'm sorry. what's impressive about all that was is it was preoprah. there were no cameras rolling. no one recorded the scene. she didn't get credit for it. she did it for herself. she didn't even talk to her husband about it before she did it. she just did it. >> describe what the day was like for elizabeth after that photograph. she met the national guard at the door.

she left crying and sat at a bus stop and consoled by a white woman as this mob surrounded them. >> she had write an ordeal that day. when she was walking forward in the picture, she is thinking to herself, there is a bus stop a couple of blocks ahead and if i can just get there, i will be safe. the mob kind of followed her to the bus stop. she sat there by herself and there these poignant pictures of her sitting all alone with a few news men drawing the cordon around her and protecting her without trying to get too involved in the story. a couple of people tried to interview her. the "new york times" reporter got in trouble for doing this, went over to her and put his arm around her and said don't let them see you cry. this white woman, a left wing communist woman who lived in little rock at the time came over and yelled at the crowd and agitated them more and said you

are all going to be a shamed of yourself in six months. can't you see she is just a little girl and she helped her on the bus when the bus finally arrived. she was sitting on the bench for a half hour by herself. she never got over it. in the ordeal of that day. >> michael steel is with us from washington. >> i do. i had the privilege of visiting central high school last year. it is quite a place. there is something about standing in that quad and realizing the history that took place there. that picture captures it very well. you tell the narrative very well. how do you see that picture translating into today where you have a generation that is so far removed from that moment. how do they begin to appreciate exactly how significant that photo is, not in the negative of a white woman yelling at a black

woman and trying to get an education, but everything that happened after that. that moment was transcended by the things that took place in 1962 and 1968, etc. do you see that translation for kids today? >> i think that picture sets a base line for race relations in this country. it helps kids to realize what a deficit we had to emerge from. how bat things were. as a reminder that things that were that bad then don't just magically disappear. the whole idea that we are post racial is ridiculous. that's embodied in the difficult relationship that elizabeth and hazel had even after they reconciled in 1997. they came and started making appearances together. slowly the racial chasm between

them opened up again despite the good will between them. now they haven't talked in ten years. they talked to me at great length, but the last time they spoke to one another was the september 11, 2001. they have not talked since. >> who took the picture? >> the picture was taken by a man named will counts, a 26-year-old photographer for the arkansas democrat segregationist paper who had just been at central high school as a student a few years earlier. >> we have to go, but you don't seem at peace with this. >> the last chapter of this story has not necessarily been written and may not be written by me. there is a profound bond between these two women. when you mentioned one to the other, they each get choked up. my hope is that at some point when no one is looking, when

reporters are not around, they will come back together again. >> thank you. the book is elizabeth and hazel. two women of little rock. you can get an excerpt on our website. >> thank you for being here. >> up next, a developing scene in greece. live pictures right now that we are looking at where a protest over austerity measures turns violent. this is next. coffee doesn't have vitamins... unless you want it to.

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it's the starbucks via® taste promise. financial advise is everywhere. i mean everywhere. real objective investing help. that's a little harder to find. but, here's what i know... td ameritrade doesn't manage mutual funds. or underwrite stocks and bonds. or even publish their own research. so guidance from td ameritrade isn't about their priorities. it's about mine. it's about mine. it's about mine. straight forward guidance, that's what makes td ameritrade different. >> let's get a check on business before the bell as we watch scenes from greece. i suppose melissa francis will blame you for that too. let's go to the new york stock exchange. how are you doing?

what's going on down there? >> it's not hard to believe you have a hand in what's going on in greece. they kicked off the biggest protest in years now. michelle said the protesters are throwing bombs at the police. they are basically protesting austerity measures that will be voted on in parliament that cut pay and also cut pension for union workers and stopped picking up the trash there. it's piling up. this as they scramble to outline a new rescue package they are supposed to putting together by sunday. >> for people watching these pictures, the things austerity measures don't have, greece goes down. >> without question. some say even with the austerity measures it's still note enough. they have a problem where they have been spending beyond their means for years. at the same time the economy is falling. whatever revenue is coming in is

sclichging. this is an insurmountable problem and what the german chancellor was talking about earlier this week when she said we will get together. even that is a temporary solution to the debt crisis. the real problem is all about spending. you guys have not gone far enough to address that. that's what we are seeing. >> the logic of the protests is mind boggling. if they don't do the measures, greece mels down. let's go from greece to california. concerns in the apple empire. apple missed the fourth quarter. iphone sales are flat. is this a blip on the radar or sadly a sign of things to come? >> it was a stung myth, but you have to keep it in perspective. revenue was up 40%. they pulled 17 million iphones and they had been looking for 2o million. that's how many they had according to the ceo saying one

of the reasons why they didn't make estimates is people were waiting for the new iphone 4 s to come out. they had twice as many ipads since the first since 2004. everybody is worried about the future of apple without steve jobs. >> no doubt about it. >> goldman posted a biggs loss signalling a shift on wall street. what's going on there? >> investment banking revenue way down. we have seen it across the financials. i was standing outside in the rain waiting for to you come down here. i will see you tomorrow, right? >> i will be coming down wearing a gas mask. it will be great. we will go over together to the barricade. we'll be right back. wanna know the difference between a trader and an elite trader?

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then i'm going to say how is that going to create one job. >> for won't because they have been outsourced to uzbekistan. i hope that herman did not offend their president. [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest.

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